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I am trying to make a chart containing both drug concentration and
biomarker concentration using winnonlin. So I need to have two Y
axises. One on left for drug, and the other on right for biomarker. I
know excel and sigmaplot can do this. Has anyone plot this before
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The following message was posted to: PharmPK
Bad news: it's definitely not possible in WinNonlin. I had a hot
discussion about this issue with Pharsight's support 5 years ago
(Version 4.0.1, current is 5.2.1 as of April 2008).
The response I got was:
"[...] Other customers have also expressed the desire to have
multiple y-axes, and we are exploring different charting options
for future releases. [...] I can only suggest an overlay or making
multiple charts or using another tool. [...] We consider the need
for enhancements to the charting tool to be high-priority. [...]
so we hope to offer you more options in the future."
Funny enough Gabrielsson's/Weiner's "PK and PD Analysis" 2nd edition
contained a nice overlay of plasma and urine data in (linear scale),
different units in their example PK5.
In editions 3 and 4 they changed the scale to semi-log.
Dan is Pharsight's Chief Technology Officer. ;-)
Heads up, and go for R
PS. It would be nice to export datasets to R (which is the
GNU-variant of S/S+ using the same data-format). WinNonlin has the
option to export to s+, but looks for S+ v6.1 to be installed on
the same machine - bad luck for GNU. Therefore you either have to
save your workbook in M$-Excel-format, or CSV.
If you have SigmaPlot v8 installed: File>Sigma Plot Export.
Ing. Helmut Schuetz
BEBAC - Consultancy Services for
Bioequivalence and Bioavailability Studies
1070 Vienna, Austria
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I have had the same experience... contacted Pharsight.....sorry...the
secondary Y axis has not been developed in the program.
One way to cope with it is to plot both entities on the same Y-axis,
after having changed the units of either of the two such that they can
be plotted on the same scale.
So if one is in the range of say 500 to1000 ng/mL and the other in
the range of 0.2 to 1.0 ng/mL, then you have to change the units of
either of the two to make them fit in a scale of 0-1000 or 0-1,
whichever you like. And then you put the units in brackets in the name
of each legend for clarity, and no unit in the title of the Y-axis
The trick is to have your concentrations in adjacent columns in the
workbook. When you make the chart drag Time to the X-axis field and
then the name of the first entity to the Y-axis field. Then drag Time
again to the X-axis field and the other entity to the Y-axis field.
Next you need to edit the titles of the legend, which show up in a
field below that in the same tab-sheet. This you can do with F5. Have
a go at it, and you see it will work provided you can find a 'common'
scale for both entities. I still prefer this to doing it in Excel,
because it is less error prone.
And a TIP for all WinNonlin users, should you not be aware of this
option. If you are doing descriptives or making a chart and you see an
error in say the legend of the chart because there is a typo in your
workbook, then go to the wrkb, correct the error, however your plot
will go pink and say 'source changed'. I used to start all over again,
but if you go to 'Tools' and Refresh all, you will get your plot again
with the error corrected. This also works for descriptives if you have
for instance not deselected properly or have got the wrong name. It
only works a long as you have not saved the output.
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Dear Yulan, Helmut, Frieda,
You are indeed correct that XYY plots with differing axes are
not currently supported by WinNonlin, unfortunately the current
graphics engine simply could not support this.
However there is good news - for the last few years Pharsight
has been rewriting WinNonlin to add many other new features that
users have requested in the past, ( as well as adding in NLME
functions etc.) , so we could move beyond the limitations of the
old Nonlin grid.
This product is due for release before the end of the year as
WinNonlin 6 - Phoenix and I attach links to an example of the graph
you and Yulan Qi have been looking to plot ; Gabrielsson's/Weiner's
"PK and PD Analysis" PK5 example in the 4th edition.
and a second example also presented in the linear scale to illustrate
that both axes can have different scales
WinNonlin 6/Phoenix looks different to WinNonlin 5 .x but be assured
we will be providing training to help people to transition over to
version 6, all current licensees of WNL will receive version 6 as
part of their maintenance agreement.
Senior Scientific Consultant
Mobile : +44 7980 832 666
Facsimile : +1 801 991 7145
Home Office : +44 113 274 1198
Forthcoming methodology and software training -http://www.pharsight.com/training
19-20 Aug 2008 Cary (Raleigh Area), NC
8-9 Sept 2008 Woburn (Boston suburb), MA
16-17 Sept 2008 San Diego, CA
23-24 Sept 2008 Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Hands-on Training with the IVIVC Toolkit for WinNonlin - This course
will cost $450 instead of $700, if you book it in conjunction with the
WinNonlin course on Aug 19 -20, 2008
21 Aug 2008 Cary (Raleigh Area), NC
Intermediate PK/PD Modeling Methodology
29 Sep - 2 Oct 2008 Seattle, WA
Advanced PK/PD Modeling Methodology
27-30 Oct 2008 East Brunswick, NJ
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